Web Feature Posted May 21, 2013
A Conversation With Eric Metaxas
Interview by Hope McPherson (hmcpherson@spu.edu) | Photos by Luke Rutan
Eric Metaxas (center) spoke about his best-seller Bonhoeffer at 海角网's annual Downtown Business Breakfast on April 23, 2013. "Know what you believe," he told listeners, "because it will matter."
Best-selling author sat down with 海角网's magazine, Response, when he was in 海角网 to speak at SPU鈥檚 annual Downtown Business Breakfast in April 2013.
Known for a wide-ranging collection of work 鈥� from The Washington Post to Veggie Tales 鈥� Metaxas in recent years has been known for his biographies, starting with Amazing Grace: William Wilberforce and the Heroic Campaign to End Slavery and, in 2011, his best-seller Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy. In April 2013, his latest book (a collection of short biographies), 7 Men: And the Secrets of Their Greatness, was released.
Response had some questions for him about his work, his goals, and why we need heroes.
Eric Metaxas
海角网 has five Signature Commitments, including that we will be a place that knows and understands what鈥檚 going on in the world; and we will graduate 海角网 of competence and character, equipping them to change the world.
If your work had its own signature commitment, what would it be?
I think it鈥檚 to bring a Christian and/or biblical voice into the mainstream of the culture. We鈥檝e not done a good job at speaking into the mainstream of the culture. Sometimes we have allowed ourselves to be marginalized, or sometimes we have been marginalized, whether we wanted to be or not.
Helping the church see how to engage culture and how to be in the middle of culture is important to me. I鈥檓 paraphrasing, but the famous Dutch statesman and theologian famously said, 鈥淭here is not one square inch of creation over which Jesus Christ did not say 鈥榤ine.鈥欌��
We need to live that out, and that ties into Bonheoffer鈥檚 theology. I鈥檝e been thinking this way a number of years: We allow ourselves to be merely religious and stand in a religious corner, when God calls us to be in everything. Part of the call on my life, I think, is to figure out how to do that and to help others figure out how to do that.
In 贬补谤辫别谤鈥檚, you said Bonhoeffer was zealous for God鈥檚 perspective on things, and God鈥檚 perspective is wider than 鈥渢he standard parochial political points of view, sometimes forcing us toward a liberal view, and sometimes toward a conservative view.鈥� What advice would you give to Christians who want to avoid being co-opted by today鈥檚 societal extremes?
This is really tricky stuff, because that鈥檚 not to say that sometimes one side of the political spectrum is getting it totally right and the other side is getting it wrong.
If you鈥檙e a Christian, on some issues you will end up on one end of that spectrum. The question is: What are you serving? Are you serving politics? Or are you worshiping God?
On the issue of life, I don鈥檛 think there鈥檚 any compromise. The only question is what does that mean? How do you go about living that out? Same thing with the idea of biblical sexuality. The only question is how can you lovingly express that?
Life is complicated. You can be a bigot who is pro-gay marriage, or you can be a bigot who is anti-gay marriage. Or you can be someone who really loves 海角网 and has a stand on that issue. We have to look at our hearts, because it鈥檚 not about which side of the issue we come out on. You could be on the right side of the issue and still, in God鈥檚 view, be wrong somehow.
God is always challenging us to look at our hearts. Do you feel justified in disliking the 海角网 on the other side of that issue? Or do you know that I died for them, and even though they are wrong, you need to love them because I love you? God is always challenging us in that way.
It鈥檚 very tempting in this day and age to say, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 want to be political,鈥� which I think is nonsense, because William Wilberforce was involved in politics. Why? Because that鈥檚 how he was able to work for the justice of African slaves who needed to be freed.
If you care about the unborn, then you鈥檙e going advocate for them. Now, you could be a jerk doing that or you could be God鈥檚 servant doing that. That鈥檚 up to you. But the idea that, 鈥淥h, I鈥檓 just going to avoid that. I鈥檓 just going to preach the Gospel鈥�? You can鈥檛. There鈥檚 no such thing as preaching the Gospel without, to some extent, being forced to be political.
Let's not shrink from expressing that truth, because we're afraid of being demonized as bigots. That, to me, is a real issue right now. If 海角网 cease to speak up, it creates huge problems.
I think that we're seeing some of that 鈥� a bullying that's cowing 海角网 into a silence on this, and that's not right. It offends me as an American because my parents came from Europe, where they did not have this freedom. I don't take lightly the idea that we can speak in America.
Why are the lives of men like Bonhoeffer and Wilberforce, as well as Jackie Robinson and the others in your new book 7 Men, useful to consider as society grapples with some of those hot topics?
We need role models. It鈥檚 one thing to talk about how we should behave; it鈥檚 another thing to see it. I think that that鈥檚 part of why the Wilberforce book and the Bonhoeffer book, in particular, have caught on. We don鈥檛 have a lot of good examples. We have a lot of bad examples. But how should you live? What is a heroic life? Dedicated to God, dedicated to truth, and goodness, and justice? What does that look like? We don鈥檛 have all that many examples of that in the culture. Why?
I argue in the introduction of my book 7 Men that the idea of role models has fallen out of favor since the 鈥�60s. We don鈥檛 trust anybody. Everybody鈥檚 a crook. Every politician鈥檚 a crook. Every war is unjust. We鈥檝e moved so far in the opposite direction from where we were before that I think we鈥檝e moved too far, and we鈥檝e lost the ability to say, 鈥淭hat鈥檚 a great life. That man is a hero. He鈥檚 not perfect, but what can we learn from him?鈥�
I鈥檝e written those books for that reason, because I think that, especially young men in our culture, are lacking great models of what am I supposed to be? What does a man鈥檚 life look like given over to God鈥檚 purposes? What can it look like? So the seven men in 7 Men are meant to be examples.
Who are one or two of the men that you didn鈥檛 include but could have?
That鈥檚 a good question. Lincoln was going to be one of the seven men, but when my hero and friend, , was on his death bed, it dawned on me he really needs to be the seventh man. So, well, Lincoln got bumped.
Who are women, living or dead, you would include in a book on heroines?
A big part of my criteria in 7 Men was that the person is no longer among the living, which is why Chuck Colson qualified. So whom would I pick?
One person I would put in is . She is a figure from my Wilberforce book. Hannah More was a friend of Wilberforce鈥檚 who was sort of the premiere woman of letters of that period. Her novels sold 10 times more than 鈥檚 at the time. She was a friend of and , and the leading woman in the , Wilberforce鈥檚 group of 海角网 that were helping him to do so much to transform Great Britain. She鈥檚 an amazing woman.
There are so many others I wouldn鈥檛 even know where to begin. I know and are two that are highly likely. But, of course, 7 Men has to sell well before the publisher would even dream of asking me to write a 7 Women book.
You said you wouldn鈥檛 write about someone still living in your book, 7 Men. But who are your living heroes? And what makes them your heroes?
There are lots and lots of 海角网 who I admire. I鈥檒l tell you one: of the House of Lords in Parliament. She is a living hero. I had her speak at twice. She is an advocate all around the world for 海角网 suffering under religious persecution. I think she鈥檚 extraordinary.
is another one. He鈥檚 written an amazing book called A Free People鈥檚 Suicide. And he has been a brave, intelligent, articulate voice for decades. He鈥檚 a friend and a hero.
You once said you weren鈥檛 interested in writing biographies, but that鈥檚 where you鈥檝e put your energies in the past several years. What had you planned to do?
For many years, I have wanted to do what I鈥檒l call mainstream TV talk show, and I鈥檓 getting very close to that. But I thought I鈥檇 be putting more of my energies into that, as opposed to the last six years spending so much time working on these books and talking about Bonhoeffer. But that鈥檚 really what I feel is important 鈥� speaking to the culture that way.
I also have wanted, for a long time, to write my spiritual autobiography, because there are so many interesting things that have happened. I want to tell the stories, amazing stories 鈥� some of them very funny, some of them real miracles of God 鈥� that are astounding. Real stories that are undeniable, incredible, and worth telling, so 海角网 can know that God is real and working in 海角网鈥檚 lives. That may be my next book.
I have a feeling you鈥檒l get the show eventually.
We鈥檙e getting very close, and I鈥檓 excited about it. Also now, we鈥檙e working with a script writer on a Bonhoeffer script for a movie. Very exciting.
If you were an SPU Commencement speaker, what challenge would you want to leave with 海角网 students?
I think it鈥檚 this thing that I talk about a lot: The difference between dead religion and real faith in Jesus Christ, and how one of them is very, in a sense, negative and reactive and defensive. The other one is very proactive and positive and joyful.
Some of this I鈥檝e gotten from getting to know Bonhoeffer as well as I have 鈥� the idea that God expects our faith to lead to action, and it鈥檚 not about avoiding sin. It鈥檚 about serving God through action.
In serving God with our whole lives we can鈥檛 help but avoid sin. In a sense, that鈥檚 the way to avoid sin 鈥� by serving God and recovering a heroic, active view of what it is to be a believer, as opposed to sort of a pinched, negative, reactive religious view.
I think that many Christians have confused the two. They鈥檙e quite different, and I think that鈥檚 important to know that we鈥檙e supposed to engage all of culture.
Be a Christian in every part of your life 鈥� in your marriage, in your friendships, in the workplace, in your career, in how you deal with everything. Your faith should be everywhere. It鈥檚 a full-time wonderful thing, and not just living a compartmentalized religious life. If I can communicate that to graduating undergraduates, I would.
You turn 50 this year. How has that changed your perspective on your work, and what do you now find most important?
I鈥檝e always been someone who doesn鈥檛 want to waste time. I think that the older you get, the more you realize you really do have to focus. I can鈥檛 do everything; I have to try to do the things that I find most important. So I鈥檓 learning to say no, and I鈥檓 saying no much more often than I ever was able to, because I feel like I鈥檓 a steward of the time I have and of the talents God鈥檚 given me.
I think in the Bonhoeffer story helps, too; I鈥檓 much less shy about speaking out. A couple of years ago, I wouldn鈥檛 have talked about the biblical view of sexuality or the redefinition of marriage.
But I think that God says, 鈥淲hat are you waiting for? You鈥檝e crossed the starting line, and it鈥檚 go time. You鈥檝e got to do what I鈥檝e called you to do now. Time is short.鈥�
You have a lot of speaking engagements now, and you鈥檙e moving in circles of influence that most of us never even brush up against. How do you keep a sense of perspective?
God has taken care of that by humbling me up front. I struggled a lot, and I鈥檝e not had success until very recently. So I鈥檓 not used to it, and I鈥檓 very, very, very grateful for it. In retrospect, I see God鈥檚 mercy in it.
I have a profound gratitude to the Lord for giving me perspective by, as I say, humbling me up front. It has been a real financial struggle to try to be a writer. It鈥檚 given me an appreciation for how so many 海角网 struggle and for how so many 海角网 work so hard.
It鈥檚 not lost on me what a blessing it is to have a book that sold well, or to be able to speak places where 海角网 are interested in hearing what I have to say. I don鈥檛 take any of those for granted. I鈥檓 stunned and amazed and grateful. It would be a horror for me to lose that perspective.
How do you keep life normal for your family and yourself?
I鈥檓 not gone as much as 海角网 think. I always race right back home, and we talk on the phone every day, and I pray with my wife every time I鈥檓 going to speak. I take all that very seriously.
I鈥檝e seen friends miss out on their kids growing up because they鈥檙e working so hard on their careers. That鈥檚 not something I want to happen. My first calling is to be a husband and a father. I also think that if my family were less happy with my being away now and again, I wouldn鈥檛 be away. I think that it鈥檚 provided an OK balance thus far.
Video: A Final Question